| пали | N.K.G. Mendis - english
|
Rhys Davids T.W. - english
|
Парибок А.В. - русский
|
Комментарии |
|
6.Rājā āha "bhante nāgasena, vedagū upalabbhatī"ti?
|
King Milinda said: “Revered Nāgasena, is there such a thing as an experiencer?"
|
The king said: ‘Is there, Nāgasena, such a thing as the soul?’
|
Царь молвил: «Почтенный Нагасена, представляет ли собой знаток нечто214?»
|
|
|
"Ko panesa, mahārāja, vedagū nāmā"ti?
|
“What does this ‘experiencer’ mean, sire?"
|
‘What is this, O king, the soul (Vedagu)?’
|
– А что это такое, государь, «знаток»?
|
|
|
"Yo, bhante, abbhantare jīvo cakkhunā rūpaṃ passati, sotena saddaṃ suṇāti, ghānena gandhaṃ ghāyati, jivhāya rasaṃ sāyati, kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṃ phusati, manasā dhammaṃ vijānāti, yathā mayaṃ idha pāsāde nisinnā yena yena vātapānena iccheyyāma passituṃ, tena tena vātapānena passeyyāma, puratthimenapi vātapānena passeyyāma, pacchimenapi vātapānena passeyyāma, uttarenapi vātapānena passeyyāma, dakkhiṇenapi vātapānena passeyyāma.
|
“A soul within that sees a visible form with the eye, hears a sound with the ear, smells a smell with the nose, tastes a taste with the tongue, feels a touch with the body and discriminates mental states with the mind. Just as we who are sitting here in the palace can look out of any window we want to look out of,
|
‘The living principle within which sees forms through the eye, hears sounds through the ear, experiences tastes through the tongue, smells odours through the nose, feels touch through the body, and discerns things (conditions, “dhammā") through the mind—just as we, sitting here in the palace, can look out of any window out of which we wish to look, the east window or the west, or the north or the south.’
|
– Это та душа внутри, почтенный, которая зрением видит зримое, слухом слышит звук, обонянием чует запах, языком вкушает вкус, телом215 осязает осязаемое, умом осознает дхармы. Так же, как мы, сидя здесь в зале, смотрим в любое окно, в какое хотим: хотим – смотрим в восточное окно, или смотрим в западное окно, или смотрим в северное окно, или смотрим в южное окно.
|
|
|
Evameva kho, bhante, ayaṃ abbhantare jīvo yena yena dvārena icchati passituṃ, tena tena dvārena passatī"ti.
|
even so, revered sir, this soul within can look out of any door it wants to look out of.”
|
|
Вот так же точно, почтенный, эта душа внутри смотрит в тот проход216, в какой захочет.
|
|
|
Thero āha "pañcadvāraṃ, mahārāja, bhaṇissāmi, taṃ suṇohi, sādhukaṃ manasikarohi, yadi abbhantare jīvo cakkhunā rūpaṃ passati, yathā mayaṃ idha pāsāde nisinnā yena yena vātapānena iccheyyāma passituṃ, tena tena vātapānena rūpaṃ yeva passeyyāma, puratthimenapi vātapānena rūpaṃ yeva passeyyāma, pacchimenapi vātapānena rūpaṃ yeva passeyyāma, uttarenapi vātapānena rūpaṃ yeva passeyyāma, dakkhiṇenapi vātapānena rūpaṃ yeva passeyyāma, evametena abbhantare jīvena sotenapi rūpaṃ yeva passitabbaṃ, ghānenapi rūpaṃ yeva passitabbaṃ, jivhāyapi rūpaṃ yeva passitabbaṃ, kāyenapi rūpaṃ yeva passitabbaṃ, manasāpi rūpaṃ yeva passitabbaṃ; cakkhunāpi saddo yeva sotabbo, ghānenapi saddo yeva sotabbo, jivhāyapi saddo yeva sotabbo, kāyenapi saddo yeva sotabbo, manasāpi saddo yeva sotabbo; cakkhunāpi gandho yeva ghāyitabbo, sotenapi gandho yeva ghāyitabbo, jivhāyapi gandho yeva ghāyitabbo, kāyenapi gandho yeva ghāyitabbo, manasāpi gandho yeva ghāyitabbo; cakkhunāpi raso yeva sāyitabbo, sotenapi raso yeva sāyitabbo, ghānenapi raso yeva sāyitabbo, kāyenapi raso yeva sāyitabbo, manasāpi raso yeva sāyitabbo; cakkhunāpi phoṭṭhabbaṃ yeva phusitabbaṃ, sotenapi phoṭṭhabbaṃ yeva phusitabbaṃ, ghānenapi phoṭṭhabbaṃ yeva phusitabbaṃ, jivhāyapi phoṭṭhabbaṃ yeva phusitabbaṃ, manasāpi phoṭṭhabbaṃ yeva phusitabbaṃ; cakkhunāpi dhammaṃ yeva vijānitabbaṃ, sotenapi dhammaṃ yeva vijānitabbaṃ, ghānenapi dhammaṃ yeva vijānitabbaṃ, jivhāyapi dhammaṃ yeva vijānitabbaṃ, kāyenapi dhammaṃ yeva vijānitabba"nti?
|
“I will talk to you, sire, about the five doors.51 Listen and attend carefully. If the soul within sees a visible form through the eye just as we who are sitting here in the palace can look out of any window we want to look out of, can it not then see a visible form not only through the eye but also through the ear, nose, tongue, body and mind? Likewise, can it not hear a sound, smell a smell, taste a taste, feel a touch and discriminate mental states through each of the other five doors besides the one you have specified in each case?"
|
The Elder replied: ‘I will tell you about the five doors, great king. Listen, and give heed attentively. If the living principle within sees forms through the eye in the manner that you mention, choosing its window as it likes, can it not then see forms not only through the eye, but also through each of the other five organs of sense? And in like manner can it not then as well hear sounds, and experience taste, and smell odours, and feel touch, and discern conditions through each of the other five organs of sense, besides the one you have in each case specified?’
|
– Я скажу сейчас о пяти проходах, государь, а ты слушай, хорошенько мне внимай,– молвил тхера. Если душа внутри зрением видит зримое, так же как мы, сидя здесь в зале, смотрим в любое окно, в какое хотим, и видим в нем зримое: хотим – видим зримое в восточном окне, или видим зримое в западном окне, или видим зримое в северном окне, или видим зримое в южном окне, то так же и душа внутри должна и слухом видеть зримое, и обонянием видеть зримое, и вкусом видеть зримое, и телом видеть зримое, и умом видеть зримое; и зрением слышать звук, и слухом слышать звук, и обонянием слышать звук; и зрением осознавать дхармы, и слухом осознавать дхармы, и обонянием осознавать дхармы, и вкусом осознавать дхармы, и телом осознавать дхармы?
|
|
|
"Na hi bhante"ti.
|
“No, revered sir.”
|
‘No, Sir.’
|
– Нет, почтенный.
|
|
|
"Na kho te, mahārāja, yujjati purimena vā pacchimaṃ, pacchimena vā purimaṃ, yathā vā pana, mahārāja, mayaṃ idha pāsāde nisinnā imesu jālavātapānesu ugghāṭitesu mahantena ākāsena bahimukhā suṭṭhutaraṃ rūpaṃ passāma, evametena abbhantare jīvenāpi cakkhudvāresu ugghāṭitesu mahantena ākāsena suṭṭhutaraṃ rūpaṃ passitabbaṃ, sotesu ugghāṭitesu - pe - ghāne ugghāṭite - pe - jivhāya ugghāṭitāya - pe - kāye ugghāṭite mahantena ākāsena suṭṭhutaraṃ saddo sotabbo, gandho ghāyitabbo, raso sāyitabbo, phoṭṭhabbo phusitabbo"ti?
|
“Again, sire, we who are sitting here in the palace will see visible forms out there before us more clearly in the great space if these network windows are removed. Thus too, would this soul within see visible forms more clearly when the doors of the eyes are removed? And if the ears were removed, the nose removed, the tongue removed, the body removed, would it hear a sound, smell a smell, taste a taste and feel a touch more clearly on account of the great space?"
|
‘Then these powers are not united one to another indiscriminately, the latter sense to the former organ, and so on. Now we, as we are seated here in the palace, with these windows all thrown open, and in full daylight, if we only stretch forth our heads, see all kinds of objects plainly. Can the living principle do the same when the doors of the eyes are thrown open? When the doors of the ear are thrown open, can it do so? Can it then not only hear sounds, but see sights, experience tastes, smell odours, feel touch, and discern conditions? And so with each of its windows?’
|
– Не вяжется у тебя, государь, ни первое с последним, ни последнее с первым. Или иначе, государь: как мы, сидя здесь в зале, отчетливее увидим зримое, если выломать217 эти сетчатые218 окна, ибо к нам будет обращено большее пространство, то неужели и душа внутри должна так же отчетливее увидеть зримое, если вырвать проходы зрения219, ибо к ней будет обращено большее пространство; и если вырвать уши, вырвать нос, вырвать язык, разорвать поверхность тела, то она должна отчетливее услышать звук, почуять запах, вкусить вкус, осязать осязаемое, ибо к ней будет обращено большее пространство?
|
|
|
"Na hi bhante"ti.
|
“No, revered sir.”
|
‘No, Sir.’
|
– Нет, почтенный.
|
|
|
"Na kho te, mahārāja, yujjati purimena vā pacchimaṃ, pacchimena vā purimaṃ, yathā vā pana, mahārāja, ayaṃ dinno nikkhamitvā bahidvārakoṭṭhake tiṭṭheyya, jānāsi tvaṃ, mahārāja, 'ayaṃ dinno nikkhamitvā bahidvārakoṭṭhake ṭhito"'ti?
|
“Again, sire, suppose this Dinna had gone out and were standing out on the porch outside the gateway. Would you know, sire, that he had done so?"
|
‘Then these powers are not united one to another indiscriminately. Now again, great king, if Dinna here were to go outside and stand in the gateway, would you be aware that he had done so?’
|
– Не вяжется у тебя, государь, ни первое с последним, ни последнее с первым. Или иначе, государь: если этот имярек220 выйдет в прихожую, ты будешь знать, государь, что имярек вышел и находится в прихожей?
|
|
|
"Āma, bhante, jānāmī"ti.
|
“Yes, I would know, revered sir.”
|
‘Yes, I should know it.’
|
– Да, почтенный, буду знать.
|
|
|
"Yathā vā pana, mahārāja, ayaṃ dinno anto pavisitvā tava purato tiṭṭheyya, jānāsi tvaṃ, mahārāja, 'ayaṃ dinno anto pavisitvā mama purato ṭhito"'ti?
|
“Suppose, sire, Dinna were to come in again and stand in front of you. Would you know that he had done so?"
|
‘And if the same Dinna were to come back again, and stand before you, would you be aware of his having done so?’
|
– А теперь, государь, пусть этот имярек вошел внутрь и стал перед тобой. Ты будешь знать, государь, что имярек вошел и находится перед тобой?
|
|
|
"Āma, bhante, jānāmī"ti.
|
“Yes, I would know, revered sir.”
|
‘Yes, I should know it.’
|
– Да, почтенный, буду знать.
|
|
|
"Evameva kho, mahārāja, abbhantare so jīvo jivhāya rase nikkhitte jāneyya ambilattaṃ vā lavaṇattaṃ vā tittakattaṃ vā kaṭukattaṃ vā kasāyattaṃ vā madhurattaṃ vā"ti?
|
“Even so, sire, if a tasty object had been put on the tongue, would the soul within know whether it were acidic or salty or bitter or sharp or astringent or sweet?"
|
‘Well, great king, would the living principle within discern, in like manner, if anything possessing flavour were laid upon the tongue, its sourness, or its saltness, or its acidity, or its pungency, or its astringency, or its sweetness?’
|
– Вот так же, государь, будет ли знать эта душа внутри о попавших на язык вкусах, какие они: кислое это, или соленое, или горькое, или острое, или вяжущее, или сладкое? 221
|
|
|
"Āma, bhante, jāneyyā"ti.
|
“Yes, revered sir, it would know.”
|
‘Yes, it would know it.’
|
– Да, почтенный, будет знать.
|
|
|
"Te rase anto paviṭṭhe jāneyya ambilattaṃ vā lavaṇattaṃ vā tittakattaṃ vā kaṭukattaṃ vā kasāyattaṃ vā madhurattaṃ vā"ti.
|
“But when the tasty object had passed into the stomach would it know whether it had been acidic or salty or bitter or sharp or astringent or sweet?"
|
‘But when the flavour had passed into the stomach would it still discern these things?’
|
– А если эти вкусы вошли внутрь, будет ли она знать, какие они: кислое это, или соленое, или горькое, или острое, или вяжущее, или сладкое?
|
|
|
"Na hi bhante"ti.
|
“No, revered sir."
|
‘Certainly not.’
|
– Нет, почтенный.
|
|
|
"Na kho te, mahārāja, yujjati purimena vā pacchimaṃ, pacchimena vā purimaṃ, yathā, mahārāja, kocideva puriso madhughaṭasataṃ āharāpetvā madhudoṇiṃ pūrāpetvā purisassa mukhaṃ pidahitvā [pidahitvāva (ka.)] madhudoṇiyā pakkhipeyya, jāneyya, mahārāja, so puriso madhuṃ sampannaṃ vā na sampannaṃ vā"ti?
|
|
‘Then these powers are not united one to the other indiscriminately. Now suppose, O king, a man were to have a hundred vessels of honey brought and poured into one trough, and then, having had another man’s mouth closed over and tied up, were to have him cast into the trough full of honey. Would he know whether that into which he had been thrown was sweet or whether it was not?’
|
– Не вяжется у тебя, государь, ни первое с последним, ни последнее с первым. Или иначе, государь: вот некто велел принести сто кувшинов меду222, слил весь мед в кадушку, завязал одному человеку рот и ткнул его лицом в кадушку. Сможет ли тот узнать, государь, вкусен ли мед?
|
|
|
"Na hi bhante"ti.
|
|
‘No, Sir.’
|
– Нет, почтенный.
|
|
|
"Kena kāraṇenā"ti.
|
|
‘But why not?’
|
– Почему же?
|
|
|
"Na hi tassa, bhante, mukhe madhu paviṭṭha"nti.
|
|
‘Because the honey could not get into his mouth.’
|
– Мед же не попал ему в рот, почтенный.
|
|
|
"Na kho te, mahārāja, yujjati purimena vā pacchimaṃ, pacchimena vā purima"nti.
|
|
‘Then, great king, these powers are not united one to another indiscriminately.’
|
– Не вяжется у тебя, государь, ни первое с последним, ни последнее с первым.
|
|
|
"Nāhaṃ paṭibalo tayā vādinā saddhiṃ sallapituṃ; sādhu, bhante, atthaṃ jappehī"ti.
|
I am not competent to discuss this with you. Please explain.”
|
‘I am not capable of discussing with such a reasoner. Be pleased, Sir, to explain to me how the matter stands.’
|
– Нет, с таким спорщиком, как ты, не мне тягаться. Пожалуйста, подскажи мне, как на самом деле.
|
|
|
Thero abhidhammasaṃyuttāya kathāya rājānaṃ milindaṃ saññāpesi – "idha, mahārāja, cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṃ, taṃsahajātā phasso vedanā saññā cetanā ekaggatā jīvitindriyaṃ manasikāroti evamete dhammā paccayato jāyanti, na hettha vedagū upalabbhati, sotañca paṭicca sadde ca - pe - manañca paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjati manoviññāṇaṃ, taṃsahajātā phasso vedanā saññā cetanā ekaggatā jīvitindriyaṃ manasikāroti evamete dhammā paccayato jāyanti, na hettha vedagū upalabbhatī"ti.
|
“Because, sire, of the eye and visible form eye-consciousness arises. Co-nascent with that are contact, feeling, perception, volition, one-pointedness, psychic life and attention. 52 Thus these things are produced from a condition and there is no experiencer found here. The same applies to the ear and sound, nose and smell, tongue and taste, body and touch, and mind and mental states. These are things produced from a condition and there is no experiencer found here.”
|
Then the Elder convinced Milinda the king with discourse drawn from the Abhidhamma, saying: ‘It is by reason, O king, of the eye and of forms that sight arises, and those other conditions—contact, sensation, idea, thought, abstraction, sense of vitality, and attention —arise each simultaneously with its predecessor. And a similar succession of cause and effect arises when each of the other five organs of sense is brought into play. And so herein there is no such thing as soul (Vedagu).’
|
Тхера растолковал царю Милинде, используя абхидхарму: «Основанное на зрении и зримом, государь, возникает зрительное сознание; с ним совозникают соприкосновение, ощущение, распознавание, побуждение, нацеленность, жизнь-орудие, внимание. Так эти дхармы являются благодаря основанию, а «знаток» представляет собой ничто. Так же со слухом, с обонянием, со вкусом, с осязанием, с умом: основанное на уме и дхармах, возникает умное сознание; с ним совозникают соприкосновение, ощущение, распознавание, побуждение, нацеленность, жизнь-орудие, внимание. Так эти дхармы являются благодаря основанию; «знаток» же представляет собой ничто.
|
|
|
"Kallosi, bhante nāgasenā"ti.
|
“You are dexterous, revered Nāgasena.”
|
|
– Прекрасно, почтенный Нагасена.
|
|
|
Vedagūpañho chaṭṭho.
|
|
|
|
|