9. Вопрос о полностью счастливой ниббане

9."Bhante nāgasena, kiṃ ekantasukhaṃ nibbānaṃ, udāhu dukkhena missa"nti?

King Milinda said: “Revered Nāgasena, is Nibbāna entirely blissful or is it mixed with suffering?"

‘Venerable Nāgasena, how is it? Is Nirvāṇa all bliss, or is it partly pain.?

Почтенный Нагасена! Нирвана – это полное счастье или же она смешана с тяготой?

"Ekantasukhaṃ, mahārāja, nibbānaṃ, dukkhena amissa"nti.

“Nibbāna is entirely blissful, sire, it is unmixed with suffering.”

‘Nirvāṇa is all bliss, O king. There is no intermingling of pain in it.’

– Нирвана есть полное счастье, государь, она не смешана с тяготой.

"Na mayaṃ taṃ, bhante nāgasena, vacanaṃ saddahāma 'ekantasukhaṃ nibbāna'nti, evamettha mayaṃ, bhante nāgasena, paccema 'nibbānaṃ dukkhena missa'nti, kāraṇañcettha upalabhāma 'nibbānaṃ dukkhena missa'nti.

“Revered Nāgasena, we do not believe this statement that Nibbāna is entirely blissful. We thus take our stand on this, revered Nāgasena, that Nibbāna is mixed with suffering

‘That, Sir, is a saying we cannot believe—that Nirvāṇa is all bliss. On this point, Nāgasena, we maintain that Nirvāṇa must be alloyed with pain. And there is a reason for our adopting that view.

– Нет, почтенный Нагасена, мы не согласны с утверждением, что нирвана есть полное счастье. Мы полагаем, почтенный Нагасена, что нирвана смешана с тяготой; мы и обоснование тому представим, что нирвана смешана с тяготой.

Katamaṃ ettha kāraṇaṃ ?

and we have a reason for saying this.

What is that reason?

Обоснование это вот каково:

Ye te, bhante nāgasena, nibbānaṃ pariyesanti, tesaṃ dissati kāyassa ca cittassa ca ātāpo paritāpo ṭhānacaṅkamanisajjāsayanāhārapariggaho middhassa ca uparodho āyatanānañca paṭipīḷanaṃ dhanadhaññapiyañātimittappajahanaṃ.

Revered Nāgasena, mortification and tormenting of body and mind is evident in those who are seeking Nibbāna, whether it be in their standing, pacing up and down, sitting, lying down, abstention from food, the checking of drowsiness, the subjugation of the sense fields, the getting rid of wealth and corn, of dear relatives and friends.

Those, Nāgasena, who seek after Nirvāṇa are seen to practise exertion and application both of body and of mind, restraint in standing, walking, sitting, lying, and eating, suppression of sleep, subjugation of the organs of sense, renunciation of wealth and corn, of dear relatives and friends.

у всех тех, кто взыскует нирваны, почтенный Нагасена, и в теле и в мыслях заметны утруждение и натуга, ограничение в том, как стоять, ходить, сидеть, лежать и есть, подавление сна, сдерживание деятельности чувств, отказ от имения и состояния, разлука с любимыми, родственниками и друзьями.

Ye keci loke sukhitā sukhasamappitā, te sabbepi pañcahi kāmaguṇehi āyatane ramenti brūhenti, manāpikamanāpikabahuvidhasubhanimittena rūpena cakkhuṃ ramenti brūhenti, manāpikamanāpikagītavāditabahuvidhasubhanimittena saddena sotaṃ ramenti brūhenti, manāpikamanāpikapupphaphalapattatacamūlasārabahuvidhasubhanimittena gandhena ghānaṃ ramenti brūhenti, manāpikamanāpikakhajjabhojjaleyyapeyyasāyanīyabahuvidhasubhanimittena rasena jivhaṃ ramenti bruhenti, manāpikamanāpikasaṇhasukhumamudumaddavabahuvidhasubhanimittena phassena kāyaṃ ramenti brūhenti, manāpikamanāpikakalyāṇapāpakasubhāsubhabahuvidhavitakkamanasikārena manaṃ ramenti brūhenti.

But all those who are happy and blissful in the world indulge in and devote themselves to the sense fields by means of the five strands of sense pleasures: they indulge in and devote themselves to vision by means of all kinds of pleasant forms, to hearing by means of all kinds of pleasant sounds, to smelling by means of all kinds of pleasant scents, to tasting by means of all kinds of pleasant tastes, to the body by means of all kinds of pleasant touches, and to the mind by means of attention to all kinds of pleasant thoughts.

But all those who are joyful and happy in the world take delight in, are devoted to, the five pleasures of sense—they practise and delight their eyes in many kinds of pleasurable forms, such as at any time they like the best—they practise and delight their ears in many kinds of pleasurable sounds of revelry and song, such as at any time they like the best—they practise and delight their sense of smell with many kinds of perfumes of flowers, and fruits, and leaves, and bark, and roots, and sap, such as at any time they like the best—they practise and delight their tongue with many kinds of pleasurable tastes of hard foods and of soft, of syrups, drinks, and beverages, such as at any time they like the best—they practise and delight their sense of touch with many kinds of pleasurable feelings, tender and delicate, exquisite and soft, such as at any time they like the best—they practise and delight their minds with many sorts of conceptions and ideas, pure and impure, good and bad, such as at any time they like the best.

Те же все в мире, кто счастлив и исполнен счастья, тешат и ублажают пять своих чувств пятью чувственными усладами: отрадными и приятными многообразными прелестными зримыми образами зрение себе тешат и ублажают; отрадными и приятными многообразными прелестными песнями и стихами слух себе тешат и ублажают; отрадными и приятными многообразными прелестными запахами цветов, плодов, листьев, кожуры, корней и сердцевины обоняние себе тешат и ублажают; отрадными и приятными многообразными прелестными твердыми, мягкими, жидкими, смешанными кушаньями и напитками вкус себе тешат и ублажают; отрадными и приятными многообразными прелестными и нежными, мягкими, ласкающими прикосновениями осязание себе тешат и ублажают; отрадными и приятными – благостными и греховными, светлыми и темными – многообразными прелестными помышлениями и мечтаниями ум себе тешат и ублажают.

Tumhe taṃ cakkhusotaghānajivhākāyamanobrūhanaṃ hanatha upahanatha, chindatha upacchindatha, rundhatha uparundhatha.

But you destroy and reduce, cut off and interrupt, stop and hinder this devoting of themselves to the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind.

You, on the other hand, put a stop to and destroy, maim and mangle, put a drag on and restrain the development of your eye, and ear, and nose, and tongue, and body, and mind.

Вы же зрение, слух, обоняние, вкус, осязание и ум давите и задавливаете, тесните и утесняете, гнетете и угнетаете,

Tena kāyopi paritapati, cittampi paritapati, kāye paritatte kāyikadukkhavedanaṃ vediyati, citte paritatte cetasikadukkhavedanaṃ vedayati.

Therefore the body is tormented and the mind is tormented too. When the body is tormented one experiences a painful bodily feeling; when the mind is tormented one experiences a painful mental feeling.

Therefore is your body afflicted and your mind afflicted too, and your body being afflicted you feel bodily discomfort and pain, and your minds being afflicted you feel mental discomfort too and pain.

отчего и тело утруждается, и мысль утруждается, а утружденная мысль испытывает душевную боль.

Nanu māgaṇḍiyopi [māgandiyopi (sī. pī.)] paribbājako bhagavantaṃ garahamāno evamāha 'bhūnahu [bhūtahacco (pī.), bhūnahacco (ka.)] samaṇo gotamo'ti.

Now did not the wanderer Māgandiya too, when he was finding fault with the Blessed One, speak thus: “A destroyer of beings is the recluse Gotama’?"

Did not even Māgandiya, the ascetic, find fault with the Blessed One, and say: “The Samaṇa Gotama is a destroyer of increase?” ’

Недаром бродячий подвижник Магандия сказал, порицая Блаженного: «Сущеубийца шраман Готама!789» .

Idamettha kāraṇaṃ, yenāhaṃ kāraṇena brūmi 'nibbānaṃ dukkhena missa"'nti.

140 This is the reason on account of which I say that Nibbāna is mixed with suffering.”

Таково то основание, на котором я утверждаю, что нирвана смешана с тяготой

"Na hi, mahārāja, nibbānaṃ dukkhena missaṃ, ekantasukhaṃ nibbānaṃ.

“Nibbāna is not mixed with suffering, sire; Nibbāna is entirely blissful.

‘Nirvāṇa, O king, has no pain in it. It is bliss unalloyed.

– Нет, государь, нирвана не смешана с тяготой, нирвана есть полное счастье.

Yaṃ pana tvaṃ, mahārāja, brūsi 'nibbānaṃ dukkha'nti, netaṃ dukkhaṃ nibbānaṃ nāma, nibbānassa pana sacchikiriyāya pubbabhāgo eso, nibbānapariyesanaṃ etaṃ, ekantasukhaṃ yeva, mahārāja, nibbānaṃ, na dukkhena missaṃ.

But when you said, sire, that Nibbāna is suffering, this suffering is not called Nibbāna, but is a preliminary stage for the realization of Nibbāna, it is the quest for Nibbāna. Nibbāna itself is entirely blissful, sire, it is not mixed with suffering.

When you, O king, maintain that Nirvāṇa is painful, that which you call “painful” is not Nirvāṇa. It is the preliminary stage to the realisation of Nirvāṇa, it is the process of seeking after Nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa itself is bliss pure and simple, there is no pain mixed with it.

Что же до тяготы, которую ты назвал нирваной, государь, то эта тягота есть не нирвана, но начальная часть осуществления нирваны, это искание нирваны. Сама же нирвана есть полное счастье, государь, и не смешана с тяготой.

Ettha kāraṇaṃ vadāmi.

I shall tell you the reason for that.

And I will give you an explanation of this.

Сейчас я это обосную.

Atthi, mahārāja, rājūnaṃ rajjasukhaṃ nāmā"ti?

Is there, sire, what is called the bliss of sovereignty among kings?"

Is there such a thing, O king, as the bliss of sovranty which kings enjoy?’

Есть ли, государь, у царей царское счастье?

"Āma, bhante, atthi rājūnaṃ rajjasukha"nti.

“Yes, revered Nāgasena.”

‘Most certainly.’

– Да, почтенный, есть у царей царское счастье.

"Api nu kho taṃ, mahārāja, rajjasukhaṃ dukkhena missa"nti?

“Is this bliss of sovereignty mixed with suffering, sire?"

‘And is there no pain, O king, mingled with that bliss?’

– Смешано ли, государь, это царское счастье с тяготами?

"Na hi, bhante"ti.

“No, revered sir.”

‘No, Sir.’

– Нет, почтенный.

"Kissa pana te, mahārāja, rājāno paccante kupite tesaṃ paccantanissitānaṃ paṭisedhāya amaccehi pariṇāyakehi bhaṭehi balatthehi parivutā pavāsaṃ gantvā ḍaṃsamakasavātātapapaṭipīḷitā samavisame paridhāvanti, mahāyuddhañca karonti, jīvitasaṃsayañca pāpuṇantī"ti?

“Then why is it, sire, that in a border disturbance kings, for the re-subjugation of those living in the border districts, set out on an expedition surrounded by their ministers, advisers, hirelings and armed forces, and hard pressed by gnats and mosquitoes, wind and sun, march over even and uneven ground and engage in a great battle and jeopardize their lives?"

‘But surely then, O king, why is it that when their frontier provinces have broken out in revolt, the kings, to the end that they may bring the inhabitants of those provinces into subjection again, leave their homes, attended by their ministers and chiefs, their soldiers and their guards, and marching over ground even and uneven, tormented the while by gnats and mosquitoes and hot winds, engage in fierce fights, and suffer the presentiment of death?’

– А если в приграничной области возникает смута и нужно привести жителей этой области к повиновению, то как же тогда, государь, эти цари отправляются во главе советников, командиров, наемников и телохранителей на чужбину, терпят там зной и ветер, укусы оводов и комаров, совершают переходы по равнине и по горам, ведут большую войну и подвергают жизнь свою опасности?

"Netaṃ, bhante nāgasena, rajjasukhaṃ nāma, rajjasukhassa pariyesanāya pubbabhāgo eso, dukkhena, bhante nāgasena, rājāno rajjaṃ pariyesitvā rajjasukhaṃ anubhavanti, evaṃ, bhante nāgasena, rajjasukhaṃ dukkhena amissaṃ, aññaṃ taṃ rajjasukhaṃ, aññaṃ dukkha"nti.

“This, revered Nāgasena, is not called the bliss of sovereignty. This is the preliminary stage in the quest for the bliss of sovereignty. After kings have sought sovereignty with suffering, revered Nāgasena, they experience the bliss of sovereignty. Thus, revered Nāgasena, the bliss of sovereignty is unmixed with suffering. That bliss of sovereignty is one thing, suffering is another.”

‘That, venerable Nāgasena, is not what is called the bliss of sovranty. It is only the preliminary stage in the pursuit of that bliss. It is after they have thus, in pain, sought after sovranty, that they enjoy the bliss thereof. And thus that bliss, Nāgasena, is itself unmixed with pain, for the bliss of sovranty is one thing, and the pain another.’

– Это не царское счастье, почтенный Нагасена. Это начальная часть поисков царского счастья. В тяготах взыскуют цари царского счастья, почтенный Нагасена, а затем наслаждаются царским счастьем. Одним словом, почтенный Нагасена, царское счастье не смешано с тяготами. Царское счастье – это одно, а тяготы – это другое.

"Evameva kho, mahārāja, ekantasukhaṃ nibbānaṃ, na dukkhena missaṃ.

“Even so, sire, Nibbāna is entirely blissful and is not mixed with suffering.

‘Just so, O king, is Nirvāṇa all bliss, and there is no pain mingled with it.

– Вот точно так же, государь, нирвана есть полное счастье и не смешана с тяготой.

Ye pana taṃ nibbānaṃ pariyesanti, te kāyañca cittañca ātāpetvā ṭhānacaṅkamanisajjāsayanāhāraṃ pariggahetvā middhaṃ uparundhitvā āyatanāni paṭipīḷetvā kāyañca jīvitañca pariccajitvā dukkhena nibbānaṃ pariyesitvā ekantasukhaṃ nibbānaṃ anubhavanti, nihatapaccāmittā viya rājāno rajjasukhaṃ.

It is after those who seek for this Nibbāna have mortified their bodies and minds, whether it be in their standing, pacing up and down, sitting, lying down, have abstained from food, checked drowsiness, subjugated the sense fields, rejected their body and life-principle and with suffering have sought Nibbāna that they experience Nibbāna which is entirely blissful, as kings experience the bliss of sovereignty when their adversaries have been quelled.

Those who are in quest of Nirvāṇa afflict their minds and bodies it is true, restrain themselves in standing, walking, sitting, lying, and in food, suppress their sleep, keep their senses in subjection, abandon their very body and their life. But it is after they have thus, in pain, sought after Nirvāṇa, that they enjoy the Nirvāṇa which is bliss unalloyed—as kings do the bliss of sovranty after their foes have been put down.

Сначала все те, кто взыскует нирваны, утруждают тело и мысль, ограничивают себя в том, как стоять, ходить, сидеть, лежать, есть, подавляют сон, сдерживают деятельность чувств, не щадят ни тела, ни самой жизни и в тяготах взыскуют нирваны, а затем наслаждаются в нирване полным счастьем, словно разбившие неприятелей цари,– царским счастьем.

Evaṃ, mahārāja, ekantasukhaṃ nibbānaṃ, na dukkhena missaṃ, aññaṃ nibbānaṃ, aññaṃ dukkhanti.

Thus, sire, Nibbāna is entirely blissful and is not mixed with suffering.

Thus is it, O king, that Nirvāṇa is all bliss, and there is no pain mingled with it. For Nirvāṇa is one thing, and the pain another.

Одним словом, государь, нирвана есть полное счастье и не смешана с тяготами. Нирвана – это одно, а тяготы – это другое.

"Aparampi, mahārāja, uttariṃ kāraṇaṃ suṇohi ekantasukhaṃ nibbānaṃ, na dukkhena missaṃ, aññaṃ dukkhaṃ, aññaṃ nibbānanti.

Nibbāna is one thing, suffering is another.”

‘And hear another explanation, O king, of the same thing.

– Слушай дальше, государь, еще обоснование, почему нирвана есть полное счастье и не смешана с тяготами, так что тяготы – это одно, а нирвана – другое.

Atthi, mahārāja, ācariyānaṃ sippavantānaṃ sippasukhaṃ nāmā"ti?

Is there such a thing, O king, as the bliss of knowledge which those teachers have who have passed through their course?’

Есть ли, государь, у учителей – знатоков какого-либо искусства счастье в этом искусстве?

"Āma, bhante, atthi ācariyānaṃ sippavantānaṃ sippasukha"nti.

‘Yes, Sir, there is.’

– Да, почтенный, есть у учителей – знатоков искусства; счастье в своем искусстве.

"Api nu kho taṃ, mahārāja, sippasukhaṃ dukkhena missa"nti?

‘Well, is that bliss of knowledge alloyed with pain?’

– Смешано ли, государь, это счастье владения искусством с тяготами?

"Na hi, bhante"ti.

‘No.’

– Нет, почтенный.

"Kissa pana te, mahārāja, ācariyā [idaṃ padaṃ sī. pī. potthakesu natthi] ācariyānaṃ abhivādanapaccuṭṭhānena udakāharaṇagharasammajjanadantakaṭṭhamukhodakānuppadānena ucchiṭṭhapaṭiggahaṇaucchādananahāpanapādaparikammena sakacittaṃ nikkhipitvā paracittānuvattanena dukkhaseyyāya visamabhojanena kāyaṃ ātāpentī"ti?

‘What then, O king, is the good of their afflicting Themselves by bowing down before and standing up in the presence of their teachers; by drawing water, and sweeping out the cell, and placing tooth-sticks and washing-water ready; by living upon scraps left over; by doing service in shampooing, and bathing, and washing of the feet; by suppressing their own will, and acting according to the will of others; by sleeping in discomfort, and feeding on distasteful food?’

– А как же тогда они, государь, встают и почтительно приветствуют своих учителей, ходят для них за водой, прибирают дом, приносят палочки для чистки зубов и воду для полоскания рта, едят, что останется, натирают учителя благовониями, моют его, моют ему ноги, забывают о своей воле, во всем следуют чужой воле, скверно едят, жестко спят и утруждают тело?

"Netaṃ, bhante nāgasena, sippasukhaṃ nāma, sippapariyesanāya pubbabhāgo eso, dukkhena, bhante nāgasena, ācariyā sippaṃ pariyesitvā sippasukhaṃ anubhavanti, evaṃ, bhante nāgasena, sippasukhaṃ dukkhena amissaṃ, aññaṃ taṃ sippasukhaṃ, aññaṃ dukkha"nti.

‘That, Nāgasena, is not the bliss of knowledge, it is a preliminary stage in the pursuit thereof. It is after the teachers have, in pain, sought after knowledge, that they enjoy its bliss. Thus is it, Nāgasena, that the bliss of knowledge is unalloyed with pain. For that bliss of knowledge is one thing, and the pain another.’

– Это не счастье владеть искусством, почтенный Нагасена. Это начальная часть поисков искусства. Учители в тяготах взыскуют искусства, почтенный Нагасена, а затем наслаждаются; счастьем владеть искусством. Одним словом, почтенный Нагасена, счастье владеть искусством не смешано с тяготами. Счастье владеть искусством – это одно, а тяготы – это другое.

"Evameva kho, mahārāja, ekantasukhaṃ nibbānaṃ, na dukkhena missaṃ.

‘Just so, O king, is Nirvāṇa all bliss, and there is no pain mingled with it.

– Вот точно так же, государь, нирвана есть полное счастье и не смешана с тяготами.

Ye pana taṃ nibbānaṃ pariyesanti, te kāyañca cittañca ātāpetvā ṭhānacaṅkamanisajjāsayanāhāraṃ pariggahetvā middhaṃ uparundhitvā āyatanāni paṭipīḷetvā kāyañca jīvitañca pariccajitvā dukkhena nibbānaṃ pariyesitvā ekantasukhaṃ nibbānaṃ anubhavanti, ācariyā viya sippasukhaṃ.

Those who are in quest of Nirvāṇa afflict their minds and bodies it is true, restrain themselves in standing, walking, sitting, lying, and in food, suppress their sleep, keep their senses in subjection, abandon their very body and their life. But it is after they have thus, in pain, sought after Nirvāṇa, that they enjoy the Nirvāṇa which is bliss unalloyed—as teachers do the bliss of knowledge.

Сначала все те, кто взыскует нирваны, утруждают тело и мысль, ограничивают себя в том, как стоять, ходить, сидеть, лежать, есть, подавляют сон, сдерживают деятельность чувств, не щадят ни тела, ни самой жизни и в тяготах взыскуют нирваны, а затем наслаждаются в нирване полным счастьем, словно учители – счастьем владения искусством.

Evaṃ, mahārāja, ekantasukhaṃ nibbānaṃ, na dukkhena missaṃ, aññaṃ dukkhaṃ, aññaṃ nibbāna"nti.

Thus is it, O king, that Nirvāṇa is all bliss, and there is no pain mingled with it. For Nirvāṇa is one thing, and the pain another.’

Одним словом, государь, нирвана есть полное счастье и не смешана с тяготами. Нирвана – это одно, а тяготы – это другое.

"Sādhu, bhante nāgasena, evametaṃ tathā sampaṭicchāmī"ti.

“It is good, revered Nāgasena; so it is, therefore do I accept it.”

‘Very good, Nāgasena! That is so, and I accept it as you say.’ Here ends the dilemma as to the pain of Nirvāṇa.

– Отлично, почтенный Нагасена. Да, это так, я с этим согласен.